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The Right to Appeal

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  • The Right to Appeal

    Just thinking about judge's opinions/discretionary powers, etc. If I was shooting equipment that I deemed to be correct, and in fact carried a copy of the rules which states this, and a judge told me that I could not use it, what can I do? This has not actually happened to me. It's an imaginary scenario. Is there a right to appeal? On the spot?
    "Courtesy is free; it just requires making the effort not to be rude."

  • #2
    Shoots under the WA umbrella should have an "appeals committee" (someone can correct me on the actual name) - my understanding is everything apart from the call of an arrow can be subject to appeal. However there is a $50 appeal fee (or 50 Euro or equivalent) that would need to be paid, which is returned if the appeal is successful.

    I think in one instance (World Cup or Champs) the tournament committee returned the fee on an unsuccessful appeal because it helped clarify a rule for the wider benefit.

    Chris
    "I used to read, but it's faster to make up stuff" - Wally (Dilbert)

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    • #3
      Originally posted by blakec View Post
      Just thinking about judge's opinions/discretionary powers, etc. If I was shooting equipment that I deemed to be correct, and in fact carried a copy of the rules which states this, and a judge told me that I could not use it, what can I do? This has not actually happened to me. It's an imaginary scenario. Is there a right to appeal? On the spot?
      In this imaginary scenario, if you had read the rulebook and had the copy of it with you, why didn't you imagine that you'd read the bit that covers the right of appeal in that very same rule book?
      Status is not defined by the amount of gear in your signature.
      Performance cannot be purchased.

      "The Internet offers everything - except quality control" - K. Anders Ericsson.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Andy! View Post
        In this imaginary scenario, if you had read the rulebook and had the copy of it with you, why didn't you imagine that you'd read the bit that covers the right of appeal in that very same rule book?
        Now now Andy. I thought we had agreed to ignore each other. You know our mums don't allow us to play anymore. It always ends in tears.
        "Courtesy is free; it just requires making the effort not to be rude."

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Matrix Makeover View Post
          Shoots under the WA umbrella should have an "appeals committee" (someone can correct me on the actual name) - my understanding is everything apart from the call of an arrow can be subject to appeal. However there is a $50 appeal fee (or 50 Euro or equivalent) that would need to be paid, which is returned if the appeal is successful.

          I think in one instance (World Cup or Champs) the tournament committee returned the fee on an unsuccessful appeal because it helped clarify a rule for the wider benefit.

          Chris
          Thanks for that. I guess I didn't word my concern correctly. What I'm thinking is an on the spot decision. Suppose you'd paid loads of bucks to go to Europe for a shoot, and you were told something was amiss, and you thought it wasn't, can you challenge the decision on the spot? I mean it's not quite the same as a local QRE, where you can just spit the dummy and go home?
          "Courtesy is free; it just requires making the effort not to be rude."

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          • #6
            The same would apply to a local WA registered shoot. As I'm over the ditch I'm not familiar with the framework your QRE's are run under. However, the "committee" is (I think) 1 judge, 1 organiser and 1 archer, so they can be gathered relatively quickly to make a decision. If the QRE is not this formal, then I suspect it comes down to your and the judge's "reasonableness" to discuss the issue and if the judge is not convinced, I suspect you are left with change it or leave...

            Chris
            "I used to read, but it's faster to make up stuff" - Wally (Dilbert)

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            • #7
              As stated above, yes you can appeal anything except an arrow value. You need the correct form and the $50US. You lose the $50 if the appeal fails. As a coach or team manager at major international competitions I always have the form and $50 in my pocket - I have used them twice (and lost both). I have frequently been asked by World Archery to be a member of the appeals committee at World Cup events and have needed to do things on that committee several times. The judgment of the appeals committee is final and cannot be appealed.
              Scout strings and stabilisers
              Accurate Sights
              Titan Scopes

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              • #8
                Originally posted by blakec View Post
                Now now Andy. I thought we had agreed to ignore each other. You know our mums don't allow us to play anymore. It always ends in tears.
                I think that you'll find that any reasonable person would agree that this never happened. You need to have me safely on ignore so that you can stay blissfully ignorant. It does appear to be your natural state.

                I mean, you were the one that said you enjoyed this jolly back and forth and then proudly proclaimed ten days later "I had a PM today advising me to use the Forum's ignore settings. So I have, and Lo and behold he's gone."

                But that's after telling me that I must have no friends and no self esteem.

                Largely, your posts fail me, but a while ago, someone showed me this.

                Now I understand where you're coming from.

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                Status is not defined by the amount of gear in your signature.
                Performance cannot be purchased.

                "The Internet offers everything - except quality control" - K. Anders Ericsson.

                Comment


                • #9
                  At a state target event a few years back, I was told by a judge during equipment inspection that my arrow rest was set too far back (overdraw) and I would have to move it before continuing.
                  I questioned the ruling, so the judge went and found the rule book and took measurements and confirmed in fact he was wrong and then passed my equipment. I was confident in my questioning the judge because I had read the rules that pertained to my shooting class and event I was shooting.
                  Shoot X's

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Andy! View Post
                    In this imaginary scenario, if you had read the rulebook and had the copy of it with you, why didn't you imagine that you'd read the bit that covers the right of appeal in that very same rule book?
                    For the benefit in discussing this topic, I was happy to imagine those particular pages were missing.
                    "I used to read, but it's faster to make up stuff" - Wally (Dilbert)

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by James Park View Post
                      As stated above, yes you can appeal anything except an arrow value. You need the correct form and the $50US. You lose the $50 if the appeal fails. As a coach or team manager at major international competitions I always have the form and $50 in my pocket - I have used them twice (and lost both). I have frequently been asked by World Archery to be a member of the appeals committee at World Cup events and have needed to do things on that committee several times. The judgment of the appeals committee is final and cannot be appealed.
                      Actually there is another case where no appeal is allowed and that is the issue (or non-issue) of a yellow card in team matchplay.
                      Man in red

                      Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Andy! View Post
                        I think that you'll find that any reasonable person would agree that this never happened. You need to have me safely on ignore so that you can stay blissfully ignorant. It does appear to be your natural state.

                        I mean, you were the one that said you enjoyed this jolly back and forth and then proudly proclaimed ten days later "I had a PM today advising me to use the Forum's ignore settings. So I have, and Lo and behold he's gone."

                        But that's after telling me that I must have no friends and no self esteem.

                        Largely, your posts fail me, but a while ago, someone showed me this.

                        Now I understand where you're coming from.

                        [ATTACH]17179[/ATTACH]
                        Andy! You know very well I have a low opinion of your personality and the way you attenpt to belittle people. I wonder why you insist on reinforcing this. If you don't want a conversation don't join the thread. A forum is about discussion, not about shoring up precarious egos. Now where's that ignore button.
                        "Courtesy is free; it just requires making the effort not to be rude."

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Matrix Makeover View Post
                          For the benefit in discussing this topic, I was happy to imagine those particular pages were missing.
                          I don't actually carry the rule book. I just carry a one page copy of AA's equipment rules. I always try and keep to those.
                          "Courtesy is free; it just requires making the effort not to be rude."

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by James Park View Post
                            As stated above, yes you can appeal anything except an arrow value. You need the correct form and the $50US. You lose the $50 if the appeal fails. As a coach or team manager at major international competitions I always have the form and $50 in my pocket - I have used them twice (and lost both). I have frequently been asked by World Archery to be a member of the appeals committee at World Cup events and have needed to do things on that committee several times. The judgment of the appeals committee is final and cannot be appealed.
                            Thanks James. So when does this appeal protocol commence? At equipment inspection and before the tournament starts?
                            "Courtesy is free; it just requires making the effort not to be rude."

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                            • #15
                              Ed quite rightly points out that a yellow card cannot be appealed.
                              The appeal process operates right through the competition, including the official practice day.
                              Note that the coach needs to know the rules and also when it is reasonable (or unreasonable) to appeal - they should never be frivolous.
                              In the heat of the moment the archer might wish to appeal, but the coach needs to ascertain the sensibility of doing so.

                              As I noted above, the decision of the appeals committee is final and cannot be appealed, even if you do not like it or think they are wrong.
                              (I have seen a case in which I am sure they were incorrect, but better to just move on and not fuss about it.)
                              Scout strings and stabilisers
                              Accurate Sights
                              Titan Scopes

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