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  • #16
    Originally posted by bimble View Post
    or could how you tie your d-loop one also be a culprit?
    Nope. The instant that you don't have the release holding a slight twist in the d loop, it is gone.

    You should assume that string aligns itself to the forces running along its axis, because that's what it does.
    Status is not defined by the amount of gear in your signature.
    Performance cannot be purchased.

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    • #17
      I wonder if it is the effect of the shaft interacting with the blade of the launcher before it drops clear. since all of the arrows spin left initially there must be something consistent causing the behaviour. everything else I can think of might result in a lateral deflection, but not a spin.
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      Viper Strings

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      • #18
        I honestly wonder why I bother explaining **** these days.
        Status is not defined by the amount of gear in your signature.
        Performance cannot be purchased.

        "The Internet offers everything - except quality control" - K. Anders Ericsson.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Andy! View Post

          Nope. The instant that you don't have the release holding a slight twist in the d loop, it is gone.

          You should assume that string aligns itself to the forces running along its axis, because that's what it does.
          To quote a H&S guy at a site I once had to do an induction at... 'assume makes an ass of u and me'

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Andy! View Post

            It will change the line of force along the arrow axis. If there's enough change, it might change the rotational cast put on the arrow.
            Understood, Andy. However, if this is intended for us to consider reevaluating our vane orientation to follow arrow spin, who's prepared to change their ideal centreshot to achieve it ?
            Style before fashion

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Brenton
              Interesting...
              What causes the initial spin from the bow do you think?
              Could it be... Nock bias, nock point torque due to release style or hand pressure, string pressure on face???
              Apparently it depends which way your main string is twisted.
              All the bows I cold find are twisted the same way so all arrows went left or anti clockwise.

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              Not sent from an iPhone.

              Try not to ruin my day, it's been pretty good so far.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Andy!
                I honestly wonder why I bother explaining **** these days.
                I got about half way through your explanation and then I felt the hair on top of my head move as what you were saying flew straight over it.

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                Not sent from an iPhone.

                Try not to ruin my day, it's been pretty good so far.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Ozzy View Post

                  Understood, Andy. However, if this is intended for us to consider reevaluating our vane orientation to follow arrow spin, who's prepared to change their ideal centreshot to achieve it ?
                  Why would I ask anyone other than Marcus, who has a high speed camera, and can see if it makes a difference, to do anything at all?

                  Originally posted by bimble View Post

                  To quote a H&S guy at a site I once had to do an induction at... 'assume makes an ass of u and me'
                  There's a difference between assuming that string will act like string, and assuming that string will in one particular instance, hold a bend in itself while under tension, because that suits a particular explanation.

                  Originally posted by Multitool View Post
                  Apparently it depends which way your main string is twisted.
                  All the bows I cold find are twisted the same way so all arrows went left or anti clockwise.
                  So, let me get this straight.

                  All the bows you could find: How many bows?

                  All the arrows went anticlockwise: Did you test with high speed photography which showed the arrow flight for the first 10 metres or so?

                  Did you test with fletched shafts, or unfletched shafts?

                  How do you propose that the string, which follows a path that has an average of literally NO rotational component, can impart a spin (at 90 degress) to an object which is mechanically fixed to it to prevent free rotation?

                  When you have two bits of information that offer some correlation, but an explanation that relies on wishful thinking to explain it, what you have is called "coincidence"


                  Just because you can't understand my explanation doesn't mean that it's wrong.

                  You don't get to make up thunder gods because you don't understand what lightning does.
                  Status is not defined by the amount of gear in your signature.
                  Performance cannot be purchased.

                  "The Internet offers everything - except quality control" - K. Anders Ericsson.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Andy! View Post

                    Why would I ask anyone other than Marcus, who has a high speed camera, and can see if it makes a difference, to do anything at all?
                    Probably it would make a difference, but aren't we are considering this concept to achieve optimum accuracy ?
                    Surely altering an already carefully tuned centreshot simply to change the spin direction would be detrimental to the goal ?

                    Style before fashion

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                    • #25
                      Let's just cover this situation.
                      We have
                      1. A high speed camera
                      2. A shooting machine.
                      3. A phenomenon that probably has never been actually captured on video before
                      4. A bow which is currently set up to make this happen.

                      My reaction is to explain what is happening and evaluate the sensitivity of the configuration required to make it do this. Ie, disturb the geometry involved a tiny amount and see if the arrow still wants to spin against the fletch pitch initially.

                      My first thought is that there is a unique opportunity to learn something which immediately would invalidate ludicrous theories on string twist with actual, visible evidence.

                      On the one single bow that we absolutely know is performing this phenomenon.
                      This is the kind of stuff which advances science.
                      It's the kind of thing that we should encourage James to investigate and write papers to try and dispel ignorance.

                      Your reaction: We shouldn't disturb the centershot because that will make things worse.

                      Did you consider that the centershot could be moved back to where it was, after doing some research?
                      Did you consider that lifting the rest up or down could also be used to vary the force vectors acting on the arrow?
                      How about changing the release so that the jaw opens in another direction?
                      How about changing the cam timing?

                      Every single one of these things could be varied and tested as a method for changing the force vectors involved on that arrow.
                      As well as just trying other arrows.

                      You can't seem to let go of one idea.

                      I don't think I've ever seen a more prevalent example of failing to think outside the box.

                      Has anyone failed to realise that this video of Marcus's is worthy of worldwide attention in archery circles? How often have you seen something new, actually simply demonstrated in archery?
                      Status is not defined by the amount of gear in your signature.
                      Performance cannot be purchased.

                      "The Internet offers everything - except quality control" - K. Anders Ericsson.

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                      • #26
                        So I had a bit of time to spare today so I thought I would have a go at this arrow clocking business.

                        I'm right handed and shoot CX Nano XR's my bow is a Hoyt Prevail 37 @ about 29.25 inches. If I shoot through paper I get a slight high right tear.

                        My arrows are currently fletched RH with Flex Fletch 187. So they should spin clockwise?

                        I stripped one arrow of its vanes and wrap and marked a reference point at top dead centre.

                        I shot the unfletched arrow from as close as I could get to the butt to start with and gradually moved back 2-3 feet at a time. I then repeated the process with a fletched arrow.

                        The bare shaft immediately started to spin counter clockwise out of the bow. Which from what I have read seems to be the norm for a RH archer? I didn't walk back all that far to be honest to see if the spin slowed or stopped. That was good enough for me to see if there was something to this.

                        The fletched arrow also left the bow spinning counter clockwise, against the way they are fletched. I kept moving back however to see when it would start to correct itself. That seemed to start about the 13/14 metre mark.

                        So I'm pretty sure I will be re-fletching this set of arrows some time soon.

                        Whether or not I'll see any difference...???... I'll keep you posted.

                        Its certainly a bit of an eye opener though

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                        • #27
                          *checks to make sure Marcus did say he was using his usual Beiter nocks & hadn't switched to turbonocks for some ****s & giggles...* ahhh yes, Beiter nocks...

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                          • #28
                            So I had a spare hour or two today so I tried out some different combos of bows, rests and release aids. Shot each bow with 4 different release aids and 2 different arrows.
                            Bows.(shot at 2.5mtrs)
                            Prime V2 39 29.5DL 58.5# Beiter Rest.
                            Mathews HTR 29DL 70# QAD Drop away.
                            Hoyt Spyder Turbo 29.5DL 70# QAD Drop away.
                            Elite Hunter 29.5DL 70# QAD Drop away.
                            Mathews Ovation 29.5DL 59# Whisker Biscuit also set up as finger bow.
                            Release aids.
                            3 finger hinge.
                            4 finger trigger.
                            2x wrist release with hooks in opposite direction.
                            Arrows.
                            CX Mach 5 29in 400 spine bare shaft 335gns
                            Easton FMJ 31in 340 spine 5 in feathers, 490gns.

                            Results.
                            Release aid type seems to have little to no effect on amount of rotaion fletched or bare shaft. All bows were a little different rotation amount but all the release aids had the same effect on each bow.
                            All bare shaft combos always spun anti clockwise amount determined by bow speed, faster bow rotated more.
                            All but Ovation had strings twisted the same way but this didn't effect rotation.
                            On slower bows the fletched arrow still rotated anti clockwise but less rotation however on faster bows it remained at 12 or started to go clockwise.
                            And Whisker Biscuit had huge effect of spinning arrow clockwise because of big rh helical fetches steering through the fibres.
                            For a different result the ovation was shot first as a barebow with fingers. Arrow remained at 12 until I stepped back to 7mtrs where it began to rotate clockwise.

                            Conclusion.
                            Apart from the whisker biscuit, rest type didn't change much, release type doesn't matter, string twist nope.
                            All I can say is my arrows want to go anti clockwise, so I'll be fletching my arrows to do that from now on.


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                            Last edited by Multitool; 4th January 2018, 06:36 PM.
                            Not sent from an iPhone.

                            Try not to ruin my day, it's been pretty good so far.

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                            • #29
                              Ah, good investigation and results! Curious now to see if your group size and scores are benefited too

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                              • #30
                                Oh well, my Bohning 1.5 X Vanes are angled clockwise
                                The seed of doubt has now been sown
                                Scrape & re-fletch, or wait until my next set ?
                                Style before fashion

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