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  • #46
    What evidence do you have (other than manufacturer claims) that spinwings are any different to regular vanes?

    We're now firmly in the realm of average people being able to capture evidence of what is happening during hundredths of a second. There are a LOT of claims that are going to be destroyed in the next few years as the average person can now capture and post bull**** dispelling footage on youtube.
    Status is not defined by the amount of gear in your signature.
    Performance cannot be purchased.

    "The Internet offers everything - except quality control" - K. Anders Ericsson.

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    • #47
      Originally posted by Andy! View Post
      What evidence do you have (other than manufacturer claims) that spinwings are any different to regular vanes?

      We're now firmly in the realm of average people being able to capture evidence of what is happening during hundredths of a second. There are a LOT of claims that are going to be destroyed in the next few years as the average person can now capture and post bull**** dispelling footage on youtube.
      Only "evidence" I have access to is via youtube etc videos.
      As you suggest, perhaps manufacturer supported ?
      All the same, worthy of consideration & attempting to keep this interesting worthwhile vane fletching question alive.
      Style before fashion

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      • #48
        In my testing I found that the vanes had much less effect than the weight of the arrow. The testing was not very scientific: Shooting three different types of arrows at different distances from a blank butt with two different bows.

        The bows (Prevail 37 and Podium 40) showed negligible difference in outcome - both had natural Left (anti-clockwise) rotation.

        Arrows: (All with beiter hunter nocks - all fletched right helical)

        PROTOUR bare shaft.
        - at 800-1000mm nock at 10-11 o'clock
        - left rotation directly proportional to the distance from the target butt.

        PROTOUR with 1.5" X-vanes (one of the smallest vanes available) approx 367gn
        - at 800-1000mm zero (nock at 12 o'clock)
        - at 2000mm nock at 1 to 2 o'clock
        - CONCLUSION: Anti-clockwise rotation is corrected almost immediately

        PROFIELD with 1.5" X-vanes (one of the smallest vanes available) approx 332gn
        - Results observed so close to PROTOURS results as to be the same.

        Easton X23 with 4" FLP vanes - much heavier (don't know exact weight)
        - at 800-1000mm nock at 10-11 o'clock - left spin
        - at 2000mm nock at 11 o'clock - correction started
        - at 4000mm nock at 12 o'clock - zero
        - at 5000mm nock at 1-2 o'clock - right spin
        - CONCLUSION: Anti-clockwise rotation is corrected at 4 to 5m after leaving bow.

        This lines up with the testing that Multitool did, that the lighter arrows corrected themselves over a shorter distance.

        Still doesn't answer why it happens. Still need more evidence.
        Has anyone had a Right spinning arrow?

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        • #49
          Unfortunately, practice day wasn't anywhere as busy as usual, so I will have to accumulate more video as I go along.

          However, there is some nice video which may originate from our very own Straat which nicely illustrates something that I'd like you all to observe.

          What you will see below is an arrow doing two things as it goes through the power stroke.
          You will see that the arrow is bending in the horizontal and vertical plane.

          It get progressively slower and you can see that the arrow spins immediately after leaving the string. It is spinning faster than the fletches could spin it aerodynamically.

          Watch it several times and take note of where the arrow shaft is in relation to the riser as the arrow moves forward.

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mO4Sq9AQTsI

          Then, go and read this bit

          http://www.bow-international.com/fea...n-free-flight/

          Finally, if you have access to it, look for James Park's article "The Behaviour of an Arrow shot from a Compound Archery Bow"
          http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/...17543371JSET82

          In that, James analyses the movement of the arrow in the vertical and horizontal plane.

          Once you've looked at that.. think about what sort of things that waves traveling through an arrow in two planes might do to the length of the arrow shaft.

          Not JUST the end of it.
          This gif might give you something to think about, but it displays only one point, and a constant amplitude and frequency wave.

          https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...g_circular.gif


          What happens when the arrow comes off the string, is that it executes a zero angular momentum turn.

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yGusK69XVlk


          Status is not defined by the amount of gear in your signature.
          Performance cannot be purchased.

          "The Internet offers everything - except quality control" - K. Anders Ericsson.

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          • #50
            The question isn't if it does it.
            The question is why does it do it in a particular direction and not the other, and why do some get it to turn the other way but most don't.
            Urban Archery
            Carbon Express
            Beiter
            Truball/Axcel
            Redback Strings

            Before enlightenment: Chop wood, carry water
            After enlightenment: Chop wood, carry water

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            • #51
              I have been thinking about how it all goes together, particularly in light of what we already know about arrows and what is happening.

              What we know about this is that it is constant, in that with a set of matched arrows, they will do the same thing.

              Note however, that the factors which are broadly required to have a bow which most people would say shoots acceptably, are reasonably similar.
              In order to change what a bow does in terms of changing arrow flex properties, we might have to set the bow up to the point that it would give disgusting arrow flight, or arrow contact.

              I haven't seen, for instance, anyone knocking 10 pounds off their bow, in order to make their arrow "stiffer" and then see if this affects the combination of arrow flex so that it performs the zero angular momentum turn in the other direction.

              It shouldn't be hard to experiment to find the contributing factors, but it would be time consuming and require attention to detail.
              At what point do you decide that it's easier to test rotation with a bare shaft and just fletch that way?

              I think that it could be possible that the behaviour of the arrow that we seek to give good clearance, could be coincidentally the same properties which influence the initial turn direction.
              If this is the case, then it explains why it appears to be reasonably common.

              Keep in mind, that while the direction of the initial turn (spin) might be constant, its magnitude might vary quite a bit. Some arrows might be spun hard enough to make them spin against their fletch direction like in your video. Others may just be spun enough to make them slow to get their fletch direction induced rotation going.

              Thinking back over all the high speed video I've seen, particularly the world cup event stuff, it's the slow rotation out of the bow which has been the factor I've noticed.
              It's the instant rotation off the string which looks weird, so it stands out when I see it.

              The first anticlockwise arrow I videoed appears to almost have a full rotation before it clears the stabiliser.
              Status is not defined by the amount of gear in your signature.
              Performance cannot be purchased.

              "The Internet offers everything - except quality control" - K. Anders Ericsson.

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              • #52
                Originally posted by Andy!
                ....
                The first anticlockwise arrow I videoed appears to almost have a full rotation before it clears the stabiliser.
                Andy, have you evidence of an arrow spinning clockwise off the string?

                Very curious to see one and work out what might be different to all other bow/arrow combinations.

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                • #53
                  None of them looked super fast in terms of rotation off the string. I'm slowly going back through anything which is currently available and paying attention.
                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JbtqLM9kZVs

                  Watch out for the turbonocks.
                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zj5pGusX8AE
                  Status is not defined by the amount of gear in your signature.
                  Performance cannot be purchased.

                  "The Internet offers everything - except quality control" - K. Anders Ericsson.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    I spoke with James Park briefly on the subject last weekend and what he's found with his testing on the subject is that all carbon arrows he's tested( left and right handed archers) come out of the bow anti clockwise.
                    His aluminium (i'm assuming indoor arrows) arrows have no noticeable spin on them.

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                    • #55
                      Levi Morgan appears to believe.....https://youtu.be/nxV_11gFzGo
                      Style before fashion

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                      • #56
                        It doesn't take much evidence to believe. It's there right in the first post.

                        The single thing which isn't yet known is the exact mechanism which determines initial rotation and HOW it does it.
                        The rotation itself is pretty much guaranteed to be a zero angular momentum turn.

                        The way to determine if it is string twist related is to ascertain which direction A string spins a shaft, then unwind it until it is straight, then put the same number of twists into it in the other direction and then check the initial shaft rotation again.
                        If it's a direct relationship, the rotation will be the other way AND the relationship will be able to be proven beyond doubt if it reliably follows this relationship when changing it.

                        An untwisted string should logically show very little demonstrated initial spin IF this is the correct indicator.

                        It's not a terribly difficult process to isolate the actual telling factor. It just requires someone to do the work.

                        Get someone to make up two identical strings and twist them in different directions before serving them..

                        Once the variable determining the rotational direction is isolated, THEN you can establish a simple rule.

                        If you really want to, then you can try and figure out the mechanism.
                        Status is not defined by the amount of gear in your signature.
                        Performance cannot be purchased.

                        "The Internet offers everything - except quality control" - K. Anders Ericsson.

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                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Multitool View Post
                          So I took my bare shaft which was spining left and fletched it left and shot it with my rh fletched arrows at about 35mtrs. It was early and took a few ends to get going but they all grouped together. No shots that would suggest they performed any different.
                          Now need to try 70mtrs.

                          Sent from my SM-N950F using Tapatalk
                          Noted that your left fletched arrow is center. Others are grouped wider.
                          It would of been even more interesting had you had more of each .

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                          • #58
                            Originally posted by wormo View Post

                            Noted that your left fletched arrow is center. Others are grouped wider.
                            It would of been even more interesting had you had more of each .
                            I acceidently fletched a new dozen Maxima LH while my old ones were RH.
                            Shot them both at the recent state IFAA event. After a bad start (shooting just the RH ones) that was my poor shot execution I went on a tear dropping 9 points over the next 28 targets (over 2 days)
                            During that run I was mixing the sets (you can do that in IFAA) not realising they were fletched different. I never suspected they were different because they grouped well together regardless of distance. I was shooting tight enough that I would have noticed it straight away. (I only dropped a few X's in 12 targets and each time I knew it was me)

                            So
                            Does it happen? Yes
                            Does it matter? Yet to see evidence of it.
                            Urban Archery
                            Carbon Express
                            Beiter
                            Truball/Axcel
                            Redback Strings

                            Before enlightenment: Chop wood, carry water
                            After enlightenment: Chop wood, carry water

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                            • #59
                              It might be easier to explain exactly what it is.

                              If you are using equipment which is low quality in terms of straightness, you will be more affected by not spinning your arrows enough.

                              That's the only thing it will do.

                              Status is not defined by the amount of gear in your signature.
                              Performance cannot be purchased.

                              "The Internet offers everything - except quality control" - K. Anders Ericsson.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                just wondering, do all Carbon arrows have lateral fibres? Or
                                do some have a diagonal layers?
                                Has anyone tried Aluminium arrows to see if the same rotation happens. ( Would aluminium be too heavy?)

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